Let's make a list. Pros & Cons style.

"Hermann" (hermann) 10/24/2013 at 11:23 • Filed to: BMW

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We're seeing a lot of debate lately about BMW losing itself, and they don't make real BMWs anymore. What do you have to say about this, with facts? I'll start:

Rant : They are all turbocharged now, they should be NA
Pro : It's an important characteristic of many BMWs, and now instead of being high revving, they have twin turbos that make them behave completely different, taking some of the thrill of keeping the car in the high rev range.
Con : 2002 Turbo, although also fond of the high revs, is a good example. But they have a long history of making cars that aren't really high revving like any car ending with "e" or even the E39 M5 and the E9.

Rant : They are big, bloated and too heavy. The 3-series is as big as a 5-series used to be.
Pro : They used to be symbols of quick sporty cars, now they are indeed very big. The 3-series F30 now weighs around 1500kg while the E90 (which is already considered bloated) was 100kg lighter in general. The F30 is 15cm longer than the E46 and 6cm wider.

Con : I see nobody complain about the E46 not being a real BMW, but it weighs on average the same as the E90, and is on total bigger and heavier than a E28 5-series, so it is already bigger than a 5-series.

Your turn, guys.

Please correct my facts if needed. I just want to put some thought into this, and skip swearing and try to clear the ideas.

It's a "Porch-uh" > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 11:28

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EL_ULY > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 11:28

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i bet we will love them in a couple of years when they are in our price range.

Jagvar > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 11:31

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Rant: Their model line is as bloated as their cars.

Pro: If you have something for everyone (well, everyone of financial means), then your market reach is fantastically broad.

Con: Not only do you offer more cars than I can possibly keep track of, but they are often redundant, and you've created new segments that serve no true purpose. Why do you need a 5-Series GT, an X1, and an X3? Consolidate!! Same goes for the X5 and the X6. And for the 5-Series and the 6-Series four-door.

Montalvo > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 11:33

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BMW's turbos are downright amazing, after spending 4 years with them I absolutely love them. I felt like it was an improvement over their last gen NA engines. They are definitely getting too bloated and heavy though. They need to lose some weight about 200-300 pounds at least across the board, downsizing the cars will help make that a reality as well. The problem is that they have to pass all the safety regulations and keep all the amenities that the usual BMW owner enjoys such as heated and powered seats, gps, a myriad of speakers. All the electronics and solid materials add up pretty quickly.

Hermann > Jagvar 10/24/2013 at 11:33

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That's an excellent Con right there. Although I'm in favor of them making many cars so they can make more money and develop better stuff, the redundancy really makes no sense.

Hermann > Montalvo 10/24/2013 at 11:35

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Yeah. It's really hard do keep weight down with all this. Even using much more clever platforms with 100% aluminium the weight still goes up because of all this new stuff that must go in.

Casper > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 11:36

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Con : They have considered making a FWD. Link to a random article .

Pro : There is none.

All is lost.

PRBot II > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 11:37

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I see nobody complain about the E46 not being a real BMW, but it weighs on average the same as the E90

I think that might be because the E46 looks so much better than the E90.

Hermann > Casper 10/24/2013 at 11:39

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My jalop heart gets all sad, but still. There is reasoning to this.

Pro : They are keeping the RWD on all other cars, including the lovely 1-series. Expanding their range and making a good car even being FWD isn't bad at all (and they've proven they can make excellent handling FWD cars with the Mini).

Hermann > PRBot II 10/24/2013 at 11:40

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PRBot II > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 11:42

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Yeah, well, that's just like, my opinion, man.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Jagvar 10/24/2013 at 11:42

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I saw a 3 Series GT the other day for the first time and had completely forgotten that it even existed. At first I thought it was a 5GT, but the rear (automatic?) spoiler was up although it was parked and I hadn't seen one of those on a 5GT before..so I walked around to take a look - and wait, what, a 3GT?! Personally (and based on sales #s) I think both the GTs are completely pointless and are a perfect example of unnecessary model bloat.

Hermann > PRBot II 10/24/2013 at 11:48

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But seriously. I've seen quite a few "purists" who admit that the only thing that saves the E90 is its looks. A friend of mine even described it as "An agressive, out of control looking animal, looking at you with those angel eyes, expecting to have a fight, roaring to you. Until you get in and realize it's a fat bull".

PRBot II > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 12:02

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I can see the fat bull from the outside. That one line just kills it for me.

Hermann > PRBot II 10/24/2013 at 12:07

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Really? I like this line! It could be a bit extruded, but it's a pretty line. I honestly prefer the pre-facelift version, and this line wasn't like this:

What's your opinion on the looks of the F30?

Sean > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 12:42

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Everyone knows the e39 m5 was the last true bmw!

drivingmsdaisycrazy > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 12:45

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Rant : They are big, bloated and too heavy. The 3-series is as big as a 5-series used to be.

Pro : Yes, they are big. But that's because they added things like more safety structure, crumple zones and airbags. And pollution controls. Those add weight and heft. So the engines have to get bigger too. Also, have you seen how big people are now compared to when they were making the E30s?

ATX211 > PRBot II 10/24/2013 at 12:47

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OK, that response to that picture about made me fall out of my chair. Well played

Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 12:50

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Rant: The naming scheme has gone utterly nonsensical. It used to be 3< 5 < 7, and the next two digits told you how big the engine was. Now, it's 2 < 1 < 4 < 3 < 6 < 5 < 7 and the two trailing numbers are supposed to give some approximation of relative performance across the line. Or something like that.

Pro: I can't see one to the series numbers being all wonky, but for the second it's probably a lot more clear to a normal that a 328i is a "better" car than a 320i.

Con: Explained in the rant; the numbers don't tell you anything *real* about the car. They've become just another marketing tool.

b33g33 > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 12:50

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Rant: They are slapping //M badges on fucking everything.

Pro: It actually allows BMW to segment the potential M customers and provide the M-sport version of their various models to 'entry level' buyers who want an M badge (or 6) without really paying for a true M car with a standard M-diff, bespoke M-engine etc. It also allows BMW to experiment with other types of M-ish cars like the beastly M550 Diesel without the 'purists' getting their panties in a bunch. Furthermore, the M-sport line is now directly positioned against the Audi S cars allowing the pure M's to be even more focused (in an ideal world).

Con: It dilutes the M brand. As every 20 year old with an M3 bought with daddy's money will tell you, the only reason a LOT OF BMW owners buy the M model is to pose. Offering things like an LSD and Akrapovic exhaust systems as part of the M-sport range is even more sacrilegious. How dare BMW take away the Bro's bragging rights about their M car?!? It's not like they have a large penis to compensate for the resulting loss of face.

Duckferd > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 12:51

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The BMW 135i (now 235i) is the best BMW you can buy today. Small, RWD, straight 6, 6 speed stick. The rest of their lineup isn't really appealing to me, and in the case of the 3-series almost a case of going backwards with a cheap interior and poor steering feel. While you can say that BMW lost of a lot of their enthusiast inclination, I think it's more of a case where they are competing for a different kind of enthusiast, the kind that wants larger vehicles, more tech and more power and easier to drive vehicles in general (wow, they're like Americans).

One thing I can never question them on is their commitment to advanced technology. The white paper on the BMW N20 engine is pretty nuts. So long as they have that, they're still BMW in my eyes.

PelicanHazard > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 12:55

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Honestly, none of the rants bother me.

Some are unavoidable. Car weights will continue to go up the more safety regulations are added.

Some are subjective. You may like the styling of the E46, others prefer the styling of the E90, others still prefer the F30.

And some are just what businesses do. It's not the end of sport cars if BMW puts the Active Tourer into production, just more cash flow. Look at what the Cayenne has done for Porsche, and it is really hard to fault BMW for trying something similar.

alvape > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 12:57

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The next X1 will be available in FWD, here's a video of a prototype frantically trying to claw itself away from a junction.

Also, by now it's almost certain that the next 1 will in fact be FWD, because apparently 80% of 1-series drivers think their car was FWD (I think 100% of them are blithering morons). Luckily that was only the case for the 3- and 5-door hatches, so hopefully the 1 Coupe/2 will always drive the rear wheels as that is the car enthousiasts are buying...

BrtStlnd > b33g33 10/24/2013 at 12:58

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I think it's silly arguments JUST LIKE THIS about BMW owner penis size that we're trying to avoid here.

AZRCD > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 12:59

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Let's face it, BMW started "loosing their way," when they announced boosted power steering in the e46 because people were finding them to hard to maneuver when parking. Now most of them are far more about status and symbol than actual cars for real enthusiast. I think they are too electronically loaded (though what isn't today?) and way too focused on "luxury and tech" features to "sell" the cars and give the doo-schnozzles something to brag about at the bar. Having said this, they are selling them like mad, clearly it's working, and we all know what happens when a company just caters to enthusiasts, TVR, Lotus, they don't make any money.

It's a shame, I don't like their current product (owned and loved a 1995 325is here,) but maybe they will branch out with some specialty stuff. that M2-whatever it is looks promising. Then again no M3 (or at least one that is recognizable), lack of 3 pedal manuals, it all starts to make me think the end is neigh... kind of like my feeling toward Audi.

kenhitch > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:00

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Y'know, I haven't driven a BMW newer than an e36. But I do love my e36. So there's that nugget of useful information.

Spdwagen > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:02

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Rant: this would be the same rant in 1990's Yahoo Group: BMW_Lovers_3
Pro: I feel so safe in my E36.
Con: BMW lost their way after the 700. Aircooled is the way, the truth, the light.
Pro: I dont have to adjust the valves every 1000 miles
Con: I can't find anyone who is a bigger bellend
Pro: The sonorous engine note
Con: Mobile phone interferes with handbrake lever.

thefuddster > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:02

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Rant: No more bespoke M engines

Con: Duh

Pros: maybe it will increase the value of my NA V10

AZRCD > Duckferd 10/24/2013 at 13:03

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I think your right about what kind of "enthusiast," they are after.

ZeeeeCar > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:03

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Rant: their interior and exterior color choices are very limited for vehicles in their price range, especially if you choose the M-Line. (and god do I hate that whole "line" shite in the first place)

Pro: it allows BMW Corporate to save money, just like the plastic oil pan on the N20!

Con: you pay a lot of money to drive a BMW that looks like every other BMW because there's so few choices.

afaik > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:05

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E46 is too heavy as well but steering feel was there

BMW has lost its way facts:

1) M cars used to have unique, special engines, now they have engines that are derivatives of their more pedestrian brethren

2) M brand used to stand for something. Now we have M suv's and pseudo m cars ala m135i and the forthcoming m235i that simply represent range topping models not ground up sport saloons. I have no problem with these cars, just dont put an M badge ahead of the model designation. Its a marketing grab not a reflection of the car.

3) fake engine noise. I dont think this needs explanation

4) the i8. Its not the car that bmw should be making. futuristic sports cars are great, but a car with the kind of performance numbers that thing will produce suggests its designed for people looking to make a fashion statement and want to brag to their friends about how forward thinking they are. I predict it will be a colossal failure.

5) the x6 exists

There is more, certainly, but I think that covers the broad strokes.

Mers > Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon 10/24/2013 at 13:06

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I don't understand why people can't get the BMW naming system:

Odd numbers are the "standard" versions of the cars, the practical, usually 4 door, regular versions.

Even numbers are the "Sport" versions of the cars. Meaning usually coupés or convertibles, 2 door, sportier look & driving feel. A series number 1 higher than the "Standard" would indicate more power, which makes sense for a sport version.

That's it. Not rocket science. Anything with an M in front of it will be the extreme version, anything with a Z in front of it is a "Roadster", which means front engine, 2 seat, 2 door sports convertible, anything with an X in front of it will be an SUV/Crossover. That's it. I can't understand how this can be confusing.

mk4wagon > Jagvar 10/24/2013 at 13:06

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Agree 100%, why do you need a sedan, coupe, crossover and suv of every model you offer. Its ridiculous. I feel like BMW and Audi are doing what the Big Three did, only the Big Three did it with badge engineering, while BMW and Audi are just doing it within the single brand creating a bunch of cars that are only slightly different from each other.

HoosierHorses > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:06

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The turbo-four on the 328 is also a response to increasing pressure for MPG. It isn't so much that they had to do it, it's just that the BMW turbos will offer more bang for your MPG buck, and that is what sells right now especially in the US.

Casper > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:08

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Let me put it to you this way: has anyone ever said a car was BETTER in FWD than RWD?

PlopFace > b33g33 10/24/2013 at 13:09

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That's a perty good one. As I'm sitting here contemplating future ownership of a M235i I'm also wondering how easily the //M badge on the trunk could be removed or if that's a factory option. I'd prolly be embarrassed to have an M badged non-"real" M car.

Andypot > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:12

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Con: The E46 is fat (I have one)

Pro: The 135i or now 235i are extremely fast. The instant torque is amazing and makes up for the fatness.

AZRCD > AZRCD 10/24/2013 at 13:13

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It also dawned on me that a lot of the complaints we have of BMW we have of all cars. Too heavy, too soft, too unfocused, too artificial, but I think it's because BMW meant so much to some of us, even those who've never owned one (like Porsche,) that we feel "hurt" by them.

patmaldo > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:13

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Rebuttal to big and heavy : I believe BMW is in a transitional phase. True with the i-segment. I think those cars are a look into whats to come for the entire line. For example, the carbon fiber reenforced plastic. Once they are capable of manufacturing the material to put into their full line, we will see a new era of performance and efficency especially with these large turbo engines.

FactualOpinion > Jagvar 10/24/2013 at 13:14

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The X1 actually has a great place in their line up. If you drive it, you'll notice it retains many 3 series driving capabilities that the much "bigger-feeling" X3 does not have. Also, price point between X1 and X3 is almost $20k. X1 is a 3 series for those who need X3 space but not 5 series price.

Jartosz > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:14

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For me, the quintessential BMW was the E30. They were the best looking BMW cars in the history of the Bavarian automaker. Personally, the BMW last looked great in the 1980s, everything since has been an attempt to get back to that design brilliance and beauty. While yes, they managed to dethrone Mercedes out of the spotlight during the 1990s and 2000s, largely due to Daimlers own failings; I feel like the great era of the BMW was the 1980s. Same goes for Audi. I reckon the Quattro was definitely the best looking car they have ever designed, and probably will ever design.

That's my personal opinion though.

Casper > alvape 10/24/2013 at 13:15

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That's just depressing...

PRBot II > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:16

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Gahhh, Kinja'd. Sometimes I just need to wait a few minutes for it to show up.

Anyway, I think the F30 looks a lot like the E90. So much, in fact, that I almost can't even tell the difference.

I should warn you however, that I have an irrational preference for the E46 over all other BMW's. So any/all opinions I express are likely to induce massive face palmage.

EarendilE30 > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:17

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"I see nobody complain about the E46 not being a real BMW, but it weighs on average the same as the E90"

As a guy that owns an E30 325i and an E46 328i, I complain about my E46 a lot. The E46 handles okay, is quieter on the freeway, is more comfortable to drive, and is pretty to pick a girl up in. Oh, and the backseats fold down which is super useful compared to the E30. But none of those things are what I think makes a BMW a BMW. It's the "Ultimate driving machine", right? Nothing about the new cars, or the E46, feels very machine like. They're all luxury yachts. When I want to have fun driving I go for a spin in the E30. The clutch is great, the steering (while slow) feels good, it handles predictably, has a real LSD, and I can friggin hear the engine.

My opinion is that BMW has done a great job of making a better Cadillac (stereo typical, I'm ignore the CSV), that handles better than a Cadillac. But if you go look at old BMWs that still hit the tracks hardcore, what are they competing against spec wise? Is it big cars? Luxary cars of the 70s and 80s? No. The Miata.

I don't care how diverse BMW is in their line up. They still need to make money and keep their current customers. But they should make a really small, stupidly good handling car that technically has 4 seats and 4 doors with an engine that is fun. And they should cut every other corner they can to bring the price down to nothing.

I think this is the problem I see with BMW today. In 30 years what old BMW is going to be all over the track? I see their presence as slowly dieing, because I'm not seeing anything in their lineup that would make a great fun track car. And if that's the case, they've lost my definition of "Ultimate Driving Machine". They become the "Ultimate Commuting Platform".

ZeGerman > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:18

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Rant: BMWs are no longer true "driver's cars" for people who don't have Porsche money.

Pro: Feedback from the steering, brakes, and chassis used to be the hallmark of BMW's cars. These days, they are much more isolating and less involved behind the wheel. Pigs are flying, since Mercedes-Benz, Audi, and even Cadillac now make [some] cars which are more involving to drive.

Con: Building cars which are less busy behind the wheel broadens the potential buying audience? It's pretty hard to come up with a con...

BrtStlnd > alvape 10/24/2013 at 13:19

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That's a great argument, except the 1 series is an incredible enthusiasts car, whether its owners appreciate it or not.

50fridge > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:19

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Con: Why the F30 3 series not an improvement over the E90 3 series. It is not any faster and it does not handle any better. It is just larger and has electric steering which is not as good as the old Hydraulic assisted steering the E90. Also the 8 speed automatic is not as good as the DCT transmission in the E91 335is.

Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon > Mers 10/24/2013 at 13:20

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I understand it. I think it's stupid. A 5-series is a physically bigger car than a 3-series, so should the 4-series *also* be physically larger than the 3 (but smaller than the 5). To make the 3-series the sedan and the 4 the coupe is D-U-M-dumb.

Crown680 > Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon 10/24/2013 at 13:20

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The 4 series is larger than the 3 series. 4 series : A5 :: 3 series : A4.

alexdc > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:21

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Their automobiles are completly overrated. They are not durable. They're no longer a driver's car. They are made with one goal... make money off the badge.

Tonylukes > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:21

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I have to admit, I do love me some tech in my daily driver and I understand that a lot of the bloat and weight increases are coming from safety features. However, there is something to be said for the e36 as a total package (I'm sorry, but I just don't get the huge fascination with the e30 other than the e30 M3 and I've driven every 3 series iteration since the e30). While it may not have the nicest looking interior or all the bells & whistles, when tastefully modified it was a beautiful car. I miss my e36 now :-(

Mers > Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon 10/24/2013 at 13:25

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5 is bigger than 3 like 6 is bigger than 4. Odd means sedan, even means sport coupé. At least they don't do what mercedes does and assume everyone knows how to speak German.

istillhaveatapeplayer > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:29

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I think BMW losing itself is less about the models (and therefore less easily to quantify on a list) and more about the feel of the cars.

Working at a dealership in '06 I got to experience all BMW had to offer. From E30's and the venerable 635csi (my favorite) even to the E39 M5 the cars were fun , they were direct and no-bullshit. It didn't matter the luxury, it was about that direct feeling of the road, the VDO gauges, the idea that you were driving a purebred. There was a special kind of simplicity that also went with the cars. While the cars got more technically advanced (not an issue) they became bloated (issue) and the connection you felt with the road became less and less, and the seating position became less intuitive and more awkward, the controls felt less direct. The cars became less exciting. I remember driving a Z4 M Roadster, with the 3.2L V6, thinking "This is what new BMW's should be about." Sound and feel.

iaintafraidofnoghost > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:33

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Con: It's a BMW

FutureHeelToeHistorian > EarendilE30 10/24/2013 at 13:34

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"Ultimate Commuting Platform" You sir, have nailed it.

Sttocs > EarendilE30 10/24/2013 at 13:47

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In 30 years what old BMW is going to be all over the track?

I have an e82 n54 with vinyl seats and a manual. It will be my track car one day. It already is my canyon car, my commuter car, my lunch car, my furniture mover, and my road trip car. I don't know what else you can ask for.

Stef Schrader > Casper 10/24/2013 at 13:47

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Yeah, that's a pretty big dealbreaker. I'm sure it will sell like hotcakes to people who don't really know any better, but COME ON. Any pretensions of being the "ultimate driving machine" are lost on FWD. Keep that nonsense over at Mini, for Pete's sake. Let them understeer all over the place instead.

edirty9 > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:47

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They lost their BMWness when they stopped supplying tool kits in the cars....cars became all electronic and less mechanical. Hell even Porsche fell for the same crap

BrtStlnd > AZRCD 10/24/2013 at 13:50

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"sell" the cars.

RiseVbove > Mers 10/24/2013 at 13:50

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Maybe things like a 4-Door 4er GC and 6er GC confuses people? A Sedan Version of the coupe Version of the Sedan Version.

Jonee > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 13:50

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They don't make a car the masses can afford any more.

Con : Only assholes drive them.

Pro : Easy to spot assholes.

duurtlang > b33g33 10/24/2013 at 13:52

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I fail to see how a M135i dilutes the brand. It isn't even named the M1 or 1M. It's close to a genuine M, and this is reflected in the name.

kyngfish > Mers 10/24/2013 at 13:53

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As you know, the numbers used to represent the engine sizes, the "i" was for fuel injected (completely irrelevant for 20 years), and "t" for turbo, "s" for sport. They downsized from a 3 liter V6 to a turbo 4 on the 328 and 528, instead of making their buyers feel bad for having a 320ti instead of a 328i, they've made the numbers mean nothing relative to displacement. Technically you can say that the numbers are representative of power output, but the "28" doesn't represent anything except being larger than "20". I always thought it was fun to be able to recognize the engine size in a model by its name. Their numbering system is useless beyond the first digit now.

If you believe that the 435 is sportier than a 335, I think we'll have to drive one and see, but I doubt it. The odd numbers are for four doors, and even are for two doors. Now also irrelevant with the Gran Coupe versions of their 4 and 6 models. So yes, if you know about cars, you can probably figure it out, but no, it actually doesn't make sense.

TaRule > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/24/2013 at 13:56

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agreed. i had this same revelation upon following a 3GT home last night. oh, this exists for what reason again? also so i get that a 5 series is a 4 door sedan and a 6 series is a 2 door coupe but then they toss in a 6 series grand coupe which is the 4 door version of the 2 door version of a 4 door. even i have to re read what i just wrote to try and make sense of this.

EarendilE30 > Sttocs 10/24/2013 at 13:59

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"I have an e82 n54 with vinyl seats and a manual."

God bless you for buying such a car, and damn you for not being one of the people that'll sell it ;-)

Are you aware of how well the e82 is selling? That's probably the car that stands the best chance of it. Does it comes with an LSD? That decision by BMW to only put LSDs in the M cars is probably what neuters the newest cars the most. Sad, when half the E30s on the road have a great, solid, limited slip diff.

Mers > kyngfish 10/24/2013 at 14:01

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That's true that the numbers are now sadly arbitrary, but similarly to what you said, only if you care about cars you will care about engine displacement being clear on the model names. In the sense of hierarchy, it is not more complicated than before. In the simplest terms, a 320 is clearly lower in the food chain than a 328, which is lower than a 335 etc... My mom owns a 320 and even she gets that (I know, because she complained to my dad when he got her the 320 that she used to have a 325, and it took him forever to explain to her that actually the newer 320 had just about the same power and engine than the old 325 etc...). That's what needs to be obvious. The Gran Coupés are harder to explain, but that's why they are called GRAN COUPÉ which as far as pompous french naming goes, is pretty obvious, too.

meatatarian > afaik 10/24/2013 at 14:07

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1) Read anything about the 1M. Or to go further back in time: E36 M3, the US S52. Source: I have one. Not the awesome itb fed, screaming S50B32... BUT a great, torquey, reliable motor that sounds like a swarm of pissed-off hornets and scoots nicely.

2) M535i, M635Csi... m packages available on standard models back to the E36 "m-technik" (if not older, too busy to check). Not a new thing at all, though I agree it's getting worse.

3) couldn't agree more, it's shameful.

4) that thing is damn cool and I want one

5) well, yeah, but what else would Latvian crime lords whip...

Jon-o > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 14:13

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Anyone who says BMW cant be turbo charged has never driven the N54/55 equipped cars with the inline 6 twin or single turbos they are magic

Ari Schwartz: Dark Lord of the Snark > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 14:13

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I like my F30 because it's a great all-around car, and performs pretty damn well in every category I can think of.

Pro: I don't need a dedicated sports car to have a sporty daily driver.

Con: Nice things make me nervous.

alvape > BrtStlnd 10/24/2013 at 14:14

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Completely agree, I've driven an e87 and it is a great drivers car. I also jump at the sight and sound of a 1M or M135i. However, most of the 1's over here seem to be company cars driven by people whose only concern is the badge on the hood. In other words: lowly specced 116d/118d's. As far as I'm concerned, BMW going FWD is a direct result of those people not appreciating the potential of their cars but moaning about ride comfort and knee space in the back.

I'm not even doubting BMW could build a very solid FWD driver. But for the price of a barebones 118i you can get a fully loaded Mazda3 2.0 Sport over here. And in that case, Munich loses.

Poorsha > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 14:28

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Yes, I completely agree that they are getting too big (could be said for most manufacturers these days). I mean the new 5-series looks ginormous! Also, the 4-series, come on BMW. The 3-series saved you and you just toss it aside (yes, still being produced, but its not the same with the 2-door now) because 4-series name makes sense?

quattrofl > PRBot II 10/24/2013 at 14:32

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Mine as well

Fookin' Prawns > Tonylukes 10/24/2013 at 14:53

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It's an E30 with improvements, but still a small car compared to later models. That's why it's so fun.

UnknwVrs > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 14:55

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Rant: BMW is now starting to aim at Putz Consumer

Pro: BMW will make money.

Con: They drive 10 below the speed limit!

AwdTurbo > kyngfish 10/24/2013 at 14:59

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Since we're ranting...this one is WAY too common - the mythical V6-powered Bimmer.
Here's a fun little time waster for any fellow OCD car fanatics out there - pick up one of those free used car rags at your local grocery store (you know, the ones paid for by all of your favorite local car dealers), and see how many V6-powered Bimmers you can spot.
I've yet to see one in person, but I've heard tales of them being the go-to vehicle for Leprechauns world-wide.
It's shameful how little is known by so many in the car business.

b33g33 > duurtlang 10/24/2013 at 15:08

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I agree with you.

Hence, the snark in the cons.

kyngfish > AwdTurbo 10/24/2013 at 15:13

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You're right, I made a mistake actually they are straight-sixes, I don't know why I typed that.

Manuél Ferrari > HoosierHorses 10/24/2013 at 15:32

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Yeah CAFE is a real thing that they have to deal with. The only complaint I have is that there isn't a middle engine option. I wish BMW would bring back the 2.5L straight 6. Seems like most people aren't paying the extra cost to get the 3.0L engine. When you go to a BMW dealership almost every 3 Series they have on the lot is a 328i cause only enthusiasts and those with lots of money pay extra for the straight six.

Maybe if there was a 2.5L option that was priced in between the 328i and 335i it would have some sales success and there would be more straight 6 bimmers on the road.

AMC/Renauledge > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 15:34

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Rant: EPAS

Pro: BMWs are what they are due to the elemental driving experience they communicate through their steering wheels. Such connection to the front wheels and the road makes them intuitive to drive quickly and accurately through every bend and crest on every surface. BMW built its reputation on driving and handling, most of which is accomplished through the steering wheel. Sacrificing that connection sacrifices what BMW has built its decades-long, "The Ultimate Driving Machine" reputation on.

Cons: 0.1 additional mpg. Maybe.

Manuél Ferrari > afaik 10/24/2013 at 15:36

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#1 is the biggest issue to me. The engines in cars like the E30 M3, E9X M3 and E60 M5 were all truly special.

I don't mind that some of the M cars have engines that are derivatives of the standard engines. That's always been the case as cars like the E39 M5 and E46 M3 had engines that were derivatives of the standard engines. What makes me sad is that none of the new M cars (as far as I know) have a bespoke engine anymore that came straight from their racing programs.

Manuél Ferrari > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 15:41

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Con: BMW is losing / has lost its way.

Pro: some (definitely not all) of their models are still better than anything else in its segment.

I'm bummed out by some of BMW's choices. But I'm not going to write them off as dead. Any business goes through ups and downs. BMW is highly profitable so they're meeting their business objectives. They are losing enthusiasts but they will respond and get some back.

The new M235i is a step in the right direction. As long as BMW keeps having a (relatively) small and light coupe in its lineup that has a straight 6 and MT then they're not dead.

ksmay71 > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 15:42

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GIVE IT UP! ALL IS LOST! There can be no fact-based, civil discussion. They make a DIESEL, TURBO, SUV "M" "Car". It's all gone.

ksmay71 > b33g33 10/24/2013 at 15:46

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Too late. My panties are thoroughly bunched.

afaik > Manuél Ferrari 10/24/2013 at 15:53

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e46 m3 engine was not a derivative engine. It was unique to the car and the updated zm3

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > duurtlang 10/24/2013 at 15:55

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People with short memories will not realize that M*xyz*i was actually the original denomination for Motorsport cars .

duurtlang > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 10/24/2013 at 16:05

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I was very young back than. I'd really like a M535i though.

Manuél Ferrari > afaik 10/24/2013 at 16:07

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What I meant by being derivative is that it evolved from the block used in the standard 3 series. I had read in the past that the E36 and E46 M3 had engines whose blocks where shared with the regular 3 Series. I know that few major components were carried over, but you can still consider the engines to have evolved from standard road-going engines.

Some of the other engines were truly unique and came directly from the racing programs. What makes me sad is that we may never see this again. The E9X M3 may be the last car whose engine had nothing in common with any other 3 Series model.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > duurtlang 10/24/2013 at 16:08

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I was a decade from being born, hehe. But I was actually aiming at the original commenter with my post.

Manuél Ferrari > afaik 10/24/2013 at 16:12

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And just so you know, I'm not at all an E46 M3 hater, so please don't think I was trolling. My super dirty E46 M3 is getting a good hand wash right now :)

b33g33 > ksmay71 10/24/2013 at 16:16

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You know what can untangled bunched up panties?

A 546 lb-ft Estate.

Have Jeep, will travel. > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 16:29

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Worst reliability. ...... ever.

PROS: BMW forces people to lease cars and get rid of them before their 100k mile expiration date. BMW sells more cars.

CONS: Sticker price goes up due to eye watering warranty costs, brand reputation and used car values take a hit, and your prized $60k when new 6 year old, 100k 5 series needs half its $12k value in repairs. Unless you are a Saudi prince, its a losing proposal.

afaik > Manuél Ferrari 10/24/2013 at 16:33

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no, that wasnt my suggestion. I just dont want it to seem like I am a hater either and wanted to give the E46 the credit it deserves. its a great car, and part of what people love about it is its engine.

Manuél Ferrari > afaik 10/24/2013 at 16:37

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I didn't think you were suggesting that, just sent my follow up to be safe. I'm extra careful on this site to make sure that people don't think I'm talking trash or trolling. Seems like some people are just on here to stir things up and that's definitely not me. I just like to talk cars :)

Wildstar > Mers 10/24/2013 at 16:40

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But that is not what BMW says about its own numbering scheme. Odd numbers are sedans/wagons, even numbers are coupes. Now, for something like 100 years, coupe meant 2 doors. To get around their own marketing jargon they are now calling 4 door cars, coupes. They had to bastardize and change the meaning of a word to get around their own stupidity.. I call that insanity. And let's not even get started with the Z4 SDrive28i. What the hell was wrong with Z4 2.8? At least with the X-series the S and X drive indicate 2 or 4 wheel drive. Are they going to make a 4 wheel drive Z4?

Have Jeep, will travel. > HoosierHorses 10/24/2013 at 16:40

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The four cylinder sounds like shit and runs like shit. Sure it makes some power and gets good mileage, but it sounds like a 90's VW 4cyl diesel, runs just about as smooth and will be a long term maintenance nightmare with carbon, injection and reliability issues.

Sttocs > EarendilE30 10/24/2013 at 16:44

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When I bought my 2008 CPO in 2010, it was $28,600. My friend who is looking for one tells me that similar 2008 CPOs still go for ~$28,000. So I haven't taken much of a depreciation hit — not that I plan on selling it. How new sales are going I don't know. But I see more and more every day. Back in 2010 us e82 owners would wave at each other it was so rare to see one.

It has brake-based "e-diff" — but you can bolt on a true LSD for $2500 if that's a deal-breaker. Or you can pay some extortionate price for a 1m. But I'd buy an n54 and roll my own. It'd be cheaper, more fun, and you (or, at least I ) would feel less guilty abusing it on a track

Loping Camshaft > Hermann 10/24/2013 at 16:45

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While I love you're use of the Dude and I do like the E90, the E46 was the best looking. Although honestly, the current 3/4 is really nice too.

b33g33 > duurtlang 10/24/2013 at 16:51

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I had an E34 535i.

Almost an M.

b33g33 > BrtStlnd 10/24/2013 at 16:52

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I can't even fit mine into a 2002 seat. It's too narrow.

It's the girth that matters.

b33g33 > PlopFace 10/24/2013 at 16:53

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Bullshit.

Wear the M badge with pride. If the M135i is any indication, the M235i will be AMAZING.

If I didn't already have a 1M, I'd be all over this car (may still be in a couple of years).

Also, you don't need to tick a factory option to debadge. All you need is some Johnson & Johnson